Posted by Spooner | 19 Comments
How does Loot work in the LFG system?
Son, I am confuse. People can’t seem to understand this new dang-fangled loot system with the Need Before greed option. There are some exceptions and errors with it when it comes to certain weaponry or trinkets and the likes, but as far as armor goes in general you are essentially only allowed to roll need on pieces within your armor class. So that means a Warrior cannot roll need for a pair of leather shoulders no matter what (as an example).
Personally, this is a fucking amazing idea and I feel a little bummed that Blizzard didn’t think of this sooner. Now they have a lot of work ahead of them to refine the system so there aren’t any issues with legit upgrades and such especially in the accessory/trinket/weapon field – but this is a start.
There has been some confusion regarding looting items when using the new Dungeon Finder system so we would like to take a moment and provide an explanation for some of these new features.
Anytime players are matched up with other players using the Dungeon Finder system, the looting option is automatically set to “Need Before Greed” which is designed to be a fair system that rewards items to the classes they are designed for. While there can be some finer details on how this works, here is an overview on this system:
- The “need” option is only available for both armor and weapons that are designed for your class. Caster classes and hybrid caster classes can roll “need” on items with intellect and/or spell power while melee classes cannot. Melee classes and hybrid melee classes can roll “need” on the items without intellect and/or spell power. There is an additional restriction that only allows characters to roll for armor items if it’s the armor type that is designed for their class. So since cloth armor is designed for mages, priests, and warlocks only they can roll “need” on these armor types. Then leather armor is for druids and rogues, mail armor for hunters and shaman, and plate for death knights, paladins, and warriors. Keep in mind that these restrictions only apply to items above a certain item level since the breakdown of stats is very different in the early leveling area of the game.
- We also introduced a “disenchant” option that is open to all classes on all items whenever a player with the sufficient level of skill in enchanting is in the group to disenchant the item that just dropped. If the winner of the item has selected this option the item will automatically be disenchanted and the resulting material(s) placed in the character’s bags instead of the item. Just like it was before the patch, disenchanting any item is not reversible and the item is permanently removed so you should only select this option if you have no plans to use the item or trade it to another player.
- The “greed” option is open to all classes and all item types but the players who roll greed will also roll against those who select disenchant. The reason for this is that if an item is not a high priority and/or eligible to be rolled “need” on, then other players running the dungeon have an equal chance to get a reward for defeating the encounter.
As far as how the whole Dungeon Finder system works, it matches up characters with others in their entire Battlegroup instead of just their individual realm. Once a dungeon is completed players go back to their respective realms where they cannot communicate or trade with players on other realms, so any items you gained in the dungeon can no longer be traded to another character in the group. If you are considering giving an item to another player, you must do so before either character leaves the dungeon.
Love the way the loot system is set up right now except for the disenchant portion of it. Works great for everyone that did not spend alot of time and gold leveling enchanting but, in my opinion, to not allow the enchanter the choice to opt out of disenchanting is unfair. If this is going to be the case, it should be across the board, let us roll on the skins that skinners get or ore that miners dig up in instances, etc. Most of the time, if asked, i don’t mind DEing things in a run, but at least give me that choice, it was me that leveled enchanting after all. Just my opinion.
I hope you aren’t one of those enchanters that rolls need on all greens because you need to “level up your enchanting”. The DE system is great I think. You can only roll DE if there is an enchanter in the group. It acts the same way as greed (if you roll DE and someone rolls greed, then your rolls compete against each other and the winner gets the shard or item). The only thing the DE option does is it removes the need for you to open a trade window with the DE’er at the end of the run, or have to distribute shards. I see no downside of removing the need to ask the enchanter in the group to take time and DE all the greed rolls you won.
As an Enchanter, I dislike the fact that people get to benefit from my trasdeskill without me having any say in it. I never get to roll on the loot a herbalist, miner or skinner gets from being in the dungeon, why is the exception made for enchanters? Also the randomness of the roll system makes the distribution of loot uneven.
The way I did it before the patch was Id usually loot the epics/blues nobody needed, disenchanted them and we all rolled for shards at the end. Due to the amount of set drops from a single run, it usually meant everyone got at least a piece, with the top roll getting 2. Everyone was happy.
Sure the current system is more practical, but it still fucks enchanters over, who used to be the ones who had control of the amount of enchant mats on the market (very much like miners/herbs/skinners are in control of how their material marketflows on the ah).
This is nice… they should allow, for example, that warriors and death knights can never roll need for items with intellect and hunters never roll items with strength, and the like.
So should tailors need to have a roll popup when cloth drops? Would it be more fun and practical for every mining node to have a need/greed/pass as well as leather skinned? How about herbs?
The enchanting thing wasn’t done to fuck over enchanters, you can cry me a river about that issue. It was done because the vast majority of the time, gear that isn’t used is going to be sharded and it saves on time and drama to just have the shards dolled out right there on the spot than waiting until the end of the run for them to all be rolled on if the enchanter doesn’t just up and take them for himself.
In the end, this entire point is moot. If I roll greed and you roll disenchant and I win with a 98 vs your 75, I’ll get the item NOT the shard. If you win then you get the shard, and so on and so forth. This does nothing to the enchanter in a negative fashion. As a matter of fact if they did NOT do it this way, and make it so you don’t need an enchanter at all to get the shards, then the price of shards would dip so low as to be laughable. Sometimes, I don’t want a shard, I want to vendor the green because I’m lazy or send it to an alt for some gear or whatever. All this system does is automate the process of making sure that players who WANT shards get them, players who don’t can just pass on or roll greed and get some coin.
I think the big stink over it all is that enchanters want their permission asked. Yeah I’m sorry but not everybody needs leather or herbs or ore for themselves. Sure they sell it but that can be said about anything. Fact of the matter is we ALL need enchants at some point – period. Everybody will need enchanting mats or need to know an enchanter for their characters to progress; because it’s something everybody needs at one point then it’s part of the pool that everybody can chance at dipping in.
You must be fucking kidding, I guess you are not an enchanter. Of the 30 runs IVe done since the patch, I havent seen a single item go to greed, everything, EVERYTHING gets disenchanted, the only time it doesnt is when someone needs an epic for their character. The crazy amount of mats gleaned from those runs hurts the enchanting mat market in a big way.
The fact that prices are stable NOW is BASIC ECONOMY, in truth prices should be UP due to higher demand for mats traditional after a patch, but in fact stuff like shards are already cheaper and going DOWN. After the post-patch mat demand goes down, those prices will plummet even further, and with it the enchanters main source of income.
So yeah, im glad you are getting your mats and all, but make no mistake, enchanters are screwed over. Hope you enjoy it.
As an enchanter I like the change, less crap for me to keep in my bags and keep track of during the run, then handing them out at the end. The only thing this change dosent do is try to evenly distribute the enchanting mats like you would as an enchanter. But really, at this stage in the game, who cares? RNG is RNG and it will even out in the end.
If you think as an enchanter you have some right to control the flow of enchanting mats.. think again, everyone knows someone who has an enchanter if they dont have one themselves, enchanting mats are not only farmed by enchanters, they are just what happens to unwanted drops 90% of the time, no matter who picked it up. As an enchanter you get your ring enchants, the ability to not have to chase down an enchanter every time you get an upgrade, and IMO the best perk is DEing your old gear as you upgrade, that in itself is worth the whole profession to me.
Creepin, if you think mats gleaned from heroic/dungeon runs dont affect the economy, please explain to me why before the patch dream shards were 30g on my AH and now they are just under 5g?
I agree wholeheartedly that the change is more comfortable and practical, I agree that distribution is more uneven (as i mentioned earlier, in my runs everyone got at least something), but on a whole the change hurts the economy badly as well.
I love how everyone who’s profession is completely unaffected by this is speaking up, and to answer your question, no i don’t need on every thing to “level” my enchanting, i have no need as it is maxed out. It is a matter of a couple of things. 1. I am the one that spent alot of time, effort, and money to level enchanting, not you. 2. i should have the right to chose if i am going to DE something or not. I understand that blizz prob did not do this to screw over enchanters, but regardless of what the intentions were, end result is the same.
To answer your question there spooner, perhaps it would be good to see a window pop up when mats drop for tailoring, or mining, or skinning, perhaps then you could cry me a river when the mats that you sell to try to make some gold are just given out without you having much of a say in it when it was you that leveled the ability to collect them, or maybe your just ok with that. You can take this as a QQ, and frankly i don’t really care, the damage is done and i don’t see them changing the loot rules any time soon, just giving my my answer on the question that was posted.
Apples and oranges…. if they added a roll for skinning or mining then the skinner or miner might lose out on mats that only they could gather. An enchanter doesn’t lose anything… they still get to disenchant any item they win a roll on. The only difference is that now, everyone else doesn’t have to ask an enchanter (or mail to their own enchanter) to disenchant the items that they won the roll on.
They “might lose out on mats only they could gather”? funny how you dont seem to like it when its suggested RNG also be applied to items a gatherer obtains, but its perfectly fine if its only applied to enchanters.
I pray the enchanter QQ on the official boards gets so bad this roll for all gathers gets applied to dungeons eventually, then all you fucking gatherers can cry my a fucking river too. I just want thats whats fair for me is fair for every other profession that benefits from party dungeon runs.
Let’s present a scenario. You are an enchanter in the group and a green drops. Everyone rolls greed and some dude wins it. He then proceeds to ask you if you will stop and DE it for him. So you agree, stop the run for a second, DE it, give him his dust, and everyone continues on their merry way.
Now let’s present another scenario, a green drops and everyone rolls DE. Some dude wins and and doesn’t ask you to DE it, he gets his dust, and everyone continues on their merry little way.
Remember, you MUST have an enchanter in your group to roll DE. If no enchanter, then the DE is grayed out.
Here’s another scenario. After a boss is downed and no one needs the gear everyone passes on the loot except the DE’er. They roll greed and get the item. This continues until the end of the run and the DE’er says, “alright, we have 3 shards. Top 3 rolls wins them”. Everyone rolls and the DE’er hands out the shards.
The other scenario, is everyone rolls DE on the boss loot, the shards are automatically handed out.
I don’t have an explanation as to why the price is changing on shards, but I really don’t see any difference between the scenarios with or without the DE roll except the time it takes to get your stupid enchanting mats.
” funny how you dont seem to like it when its suggested RNG also be applied to items a gatherer obtains, but its perfectly fine if its only applied to enchanters.”
You seemed to have missed most of my post… I will attempt to explain. Lets say we have to roll on a mining node, if the miner loses the roll he gets nothing… under the current system, he would’ve been the only one that could get the ore. Now, lets say an item drops, if the enchanter loses the roll he gets nothing… guess what? In the old system he still got nothing. The enchanter doesnt lose anything except the ability to say no to disenchanting other peoples loot. Now if you want to argue that point, then be my guest. But don’t tell me that you’re losing anything more tangible than that.
Its not like enchanters get more for DEing for themselves, like a tailor does when looting cloth, and its not like only the enchanter can loot the items that end up DE’d, so they lose nothing.
On the price of dream shards dropping, its supply and demand, Blizz puts the LFG tool in the game with close to instant turn around and not messing about in trade chat, ontop of that you need a random to get frost badges, AND they just upgraded heroics to drop triumph, so i would say the number of heroics being run at the moment is the highest its ever been. Theres something for everyone, on every toon, and their alts. Therefore supply of shards is high, and demand hasn’t really changed. Theres no vendor weapons people are all getting, ICC content so far has only had a sprinkling of weapons, so the number of people upgrading wont have changed from when people spent their time on alts in toc and ony getting weapons there.
Either way like someone has said, its not going to change, and TBH i dont think this is how someone new or even just someone more optimistic would look at it, but this has been the way society has gone with enchanters. The ability to DE is completely taken for granted, but it always has been.
I switched mains in 3.3 and after power-leveling alchemy for 2hr flasks and a real prof stat buff, I would no longer have a weeder if i took up enchanting on this toon as well. So maybe the battlegroup wide LFG has brought some kinda attitude that rubs you the wrong way, but I havent taken my chanter to any pugs yet so i wouldn’t know.
“The ability to DE is completely taken for granted, but it always has been.”
I think the main reason for that is because enchanting is the only profession in the game that is both a gathering and a crafting profession. Every other profession is one or the other.
God how fucking slick would that be? Herbalism was merged with Alchemy or Inscription. Mining with Smithing or Engineering or Jewelcrafting. Skinning with Leatherworking. Hell tailors already get their cloth like the rest of us do so they really don’t need a gathering do they.
What’s damn funny is that it would make a world of sense and maybe then they could bring in other REAL professions. Maybe woodcraft making staves, bows, crossbows, arrows, and so forth. Or something really out there like hero-professions. Engineers can become tinkerers where they make siege weapons, and real visual upgrades like shoulder mounted rockets or hand cannons and such, little robot army minions etc.
I always thought a Gnome Hunter would be awesome if they could use engineering to make mechanical pets.
I play a max level enchanting character, and a max level non enchanting character. I LOVE this change. People whining about it are being monetarily greedy, nothing more. Enchanting turns a huge profit if you use it to make money with. I suggest you stop being lazy and enchant vellums to sell! Expecting pugs to give you the blues that drop (that EVERYONE WORKED FOR!), and artificially inflating the shard market with them is selfish.
My boyfriend also has 2 max level 80 enchanters, and he loves this change. It is so convenient for those of us that aren’t stingy bastards!