Here is where you can find the full conversation. It’s worth a read as many warrior concerns are addressed at the very least if not solved. (src)
Heroic leap and Bladestorm are very awkward to use, especially in PVP, nigh unusable right now. Are there plans to make these stronger, or at least more user friendly?
Totally. We like the basic talents, so the rest is just getting the tuning right and fixing all the bugs. Heroic Leap will probably be trickier just because it has to handle physics and obstructions.
Titan’s Grip is mathematically pretty terrible right now and severely devalues attack power for a fury warrior using it. It does almost universally less DPS than a one handed weapon fury build.
The design is for Titan’s Grip to be a dps increase. It’s easy to make it too much of an increase, and we may be being too cautious with the numbers at the moment. But when we talk about Lich King, we are assuming most Fury warriors are using two-handers. It’s not supposed to be hard decision.
Most talents beyond Tier 3 in arms are staggeringly bad for PVE right now, with the exception of blood frenzy. Is this intended to balance blood frenzy? Will we see any improvements here? Do you intend to go the route of feral with arms and build multiple effects onto talents to give them PVP/PVE usefulness the way feral gets DPS/tanking talents?
Given plenty of time, we would love to sprinkle PvP, PvE and tanking talents all throughout the trees. There are definitely some lame talents at the moment (some old, some new), and we are going to try to get to them all. Blood Frenzy itself is going to be on the back-burner until we resolve how we’re going to handle raid stacking. It isn’t the intention that Arms gets to raid and Fury goes home.
The changes to windfury and sword specialization have destroyed the slam rotation for arms in terms of DPS viability. Arms warriors simply don’t have the rage for a full rotation without them, even specing to endless rage and anger management. We’re in a very similar state now to ret paladins live, enough or close to enough skills to provide powerful damage output but hamstrung by resource limitations, are there any plans to fix that? Judgments of the wise was a brilliant fix, any chance we could see something similar in arms to improve PVE DPS?
Slam is intended to be an attractive button. I think it just needs a little attention now that the extra attacks are under control now.
Fury’s top end talents ignore PVE DPS almost entirely in their current form, TG while cool is a spec for burst over sustained damage and has the same rage issues that arms does only more severe with reduced attack speed and increased miss chance. Heroic leap does very little damage and the stun effect is not useful in dungeon or raid settings so its almost exclusively a PVP talent (its targeting issues not withstanding). Bloodsurge and Furious Resolve are workable but the other new talents don’t add a lot to fury and quite honestly you’ll likely see fury raiders as 16/47/8 or something similar, keeping their exact old build plus bloodsurge or furious resolve, taking advantage of the better impale/deep wounds placements and grabbing improved bloodrage, tactical mastery, and Incite out of prot. Is that intended? Do the devs thing fury was in a good spot in TBC? Do they think we need a step up? or a step down?
There were certainly Fury warriors doing fine dps in BC, but that might have been in spite of and not because of the tree. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with your analysis. We’re working on the talents. The feedback from the warrior community, while occasionally (and sometimes understandably) bitter, has been helpful.
I think a 20% down to 0% haste penalty for TG will make it a stellar talent at high end gear with better returns coming from one handers until a fair bit of hit rating and haste are acquired to smooth out the rage, 21/50/0 seems like a good raid build with that change, maxing out TG and picking up impale/deep wounds and 2 hander spec out of arms.
It’s still a little odd that 1 talent point gets you the dual-wielding and the others just improve it, but maybe that’s workable. We’ll know soon enough. We love the idea of the talent though. It is one of those that gets noticed a lot by someone just coming to LK.
you’ve mentioned balancing blood frenzy in arms against the personal DPS of fury. Have you considered adding a buff of similar magnitude to deep fury? Something like 3% crit or haste added to battle shout, or similar? Such that you could equalize the personal DPS potential of the two trees without making arms warriors clearly superior in raids.
Yes. We wanted to make Arms as attractive as Fury for raids, but we probably tipped the scales too far. We’re currently discussing whether it’s okay for any class or spec to bring no real synergy to a group other than mad dps. But granting buffs to traditional high dps classes might also mean their dps needs to come down a little in proportion to everyone else.
Can we add prot’s passive expertise talent back on incite to help out DPS warriors even more by letting them pick up some expertise for a minor prot splash?
We weren’t trying to screw anyone out of Expertise by removing Defiance. It was intended to just be a buff. We’ll see if we can work Expertise back in somewhere.
If there is one class that Blizz has made “pure dps” it’s rogues – very little raid benefit (hemolol) with good melee dps. Of course, looking at various sites listing topdps and wws info, rogues are often passed by warlocks, mages, and even hunters – all of which provide more raid utility than just dps. Warriors of any spec provide more raid utility than rogues. Rogues should either be clearly the dps king (according to the Blizz logic here) or get some decent raid buffs in addition to maintaining at least equal dps footing. I wouldn’t mind then if warriors get their dps buff as well.
I am THE fury warrior! Now listen to ME!!! I match dps with destruction locks when they are seeding their corruption, I even pass them. I’ve been out dpsed by rogues (usually because they have their S3/S4 weapons, and im working with S2). Now then, I can work with the “Titan’s Wiff” hit rating nerf (assuming there will be gear to keep my AP and Crit relatively the same while I continue to stack my hit rating) BUT, I hear a paladin’s blessing of might will replace my battle shout without stacking… this I will not tolerate! If paladins refuse to work with warriors, then I will refuse to work with these goody 2 shoes paladins!!! …and we used to get along so well together…
Because my name is Rick, you get 1 awesome point
Because you’re a fury warrior, you get 1 awesome point
But don’t be worried about blessing of might not stacking with battleshout. Just means you can save the rage for something else. That’s about the only thing I don’t like about my warrior, every 2 minutes I have to dump rage and screw up my shizz on putting up BS.
Well I have been playing a warrior since Jan 2005, and I am looking forward to see how the various specs do in raids and pvp. One thing I was disappointed about though is the fact that DPS warriors still do not have an aggro dump ability. I know… they get aggro reduction from imp zerk stance, but that’s not quite the same thing as a Feign Death.. every 30 seconds. Aggro dump on a fury warrior is currently limited to the esc key :/
So much of the talk I have seen on the forums talk about DPS this and DPS that… but the limiting factor for DPS is aggro, plain and simple. Cause if you out-aggro the tank your dps has a very good chance of going to zero (and often times the raid’s dps with you
. Now I expect the crap-flood of posts saying a good tank don’t lose aggro. Not true, with equal raid gear (and especially now with the opportunities for people in the raid to get higher tier equivalent gear than the tank) most classes can easily rip aggro from a tank. Now I still expect to get flamed on this, but a “good tank” isn’t some guy that shows up in T6+ to tank a crappy kara or SSC run where everyone else is in T4… anyhow
Aggro dumps is why a very very good hunter (I know… only like 4 of them exist) can blast the raid charts to hell and back, because they can nuke away and reset aggro every 30 secs (how many healers out there wish they could do that?). Now with the “titan-wiff” as Rick pointed out, the raid aggro for a TG warrior has another problem… it is one thing to go on a crit-streak with 1H weapons… but I think we all know that during a long boss fight there is a damn good chance that not only will the TG warrior hit 10 times in a row, all will be crits. The only saving factor is that with Rampage procs may just get the rogues and kitty druids killed first
Indignant is a good warrior
The only saving grace that I think Blizzard is showing for this issue (tanks threat not scaling with gear, but DPS dmg going up up up!) is that they added so much more DPS to tanks.
Prot warriors (I know first hand) are doing FUCKING BALLS damage now which might help hold aggro a lot, not to mention all the mega threat talents were baked into the actual class stats, so being in defensive stance automatically adds XYZ threat without having to put points to imp. it further necessarily.
Also through enraged mechanics and how that’s been changed, warriors will be able to somewhat self heal through enraged regen.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=55694
Fact of the matter being that fury warriors with TG are going to have to itemize heavily on haste/hit/crit to be able to sustain the amount of damage rogues/cats and hunters/shaman/caster etc can do.
There’s next to nothing warriors can do in Beta to become rogues in plate with DW 2H weapons. They gave the other DPSers many more additions.
I think i would like to see an agro reduction skill myself… My warrior is not too strongly geared right now, but in arms spec I was doing 1500 average dps in tempest keep, using recount as a damage meter. During the void reaver, I managed to agro him multiple times, eventually going to the point where i put a sword and shield on, swapped to Defensive stance, and hoped my healers could keep me up… warriors have definitely gotten a much needed upgrade (that would be my opinion in my year of playing), but definitely throw us a bone blizzard